AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Attorney General Ed Meese, who was Reagan's appointee to head the—was it the Justice Department? You know, I marshaled at the—when we—I forget what the name of the actual demonstration was, but we shut down all the bridges and tunnels and there was a court injunction against it. I'm nervous about it. And I thought it would be good if you could read the texts from Silence = Death, and then from the AIDSGATE one. And I talk about irony in the AIDS crisis, and it's very much woven into everything in Gran Fury and a lot of ACT UP. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —in this very sort of coded way. So we, you know, we end by saying, "We stand with the missing. And I was very surprised that ACT UP didn't seem to have those conflicts. Avram Finkelstein: Artist. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, and I remember, you know, before that he'd already done that cover story in The Native about—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I think it's—I think when you look at this work, you have to think of it in those terms. CYNTHIA CARR: Yes. You know, it—and the reason I'm saying this is, I feel like it might give insights into how ACT UP functioned as a community. That was also going on. CYNTHIA CARR: No. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's astonishing, that project. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But in looking back on it, I realize it was actually a fairly hostile thing to say. It wasn't a political collective. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And PAD/D gave—didn't PAD/D give their archive to MoMA? ", AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I don't know how that went down between AMFAR and Creative Time, how it came to be that AMFAR had—. We can’t wait! And it had a semi-circular window above the main window. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah. And I was like, because I was thinking of it as a consciousness-raising project—we had had no conversation about it on the floor of ACT UP and I didn't feel totally comfortable, and he was like, "Everyone brings posters to a demonstration," and I was like, "Yeah, but that's different. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: One of the great poems of all time. We consulted with Salk's—Jonas Salk's son, the person who invented the polio vaccine. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: That Creative Time would be the funding institution in New York. And Mark was like, "We should stay together and work together." CYNTHIA CARR: Well, it could be. We knew every meeting, every dinner, we knew his home address, we went to his house. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: They had a very different—everyone had their very own little way of thinking about it, and the only reason why—when I heard that Larry was replacing Nora Ephron to talk at the Community Center that night—I said to the collective, "He's the only person talking about the politics of AIDS. And the two things that I thought would be interesting to experiment with is to form a collective but of limited duration so that you're not really committing—you're not actually grassroots organizing. I think that the strategies of, you know, image and text and, you know, exposition, more granular ideas, comes out of Silence = Death and Gran Fury. So that was the first section. At the time—it seems startling to realize now, but images of same-sex couples kissing was—were very, very rare in America. You know, who's going to see it? I looked at your website; there were six of them on the website—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We were—we were actually proposing a secondary research institute that would not be about—that would be about pathogenesis only, that would only research pathogenesis and a cure, and not—and be separate from NIAID. Yes, that is all great, but what about those other 36 million people? A lot of things that we commonly use come out of Polari —which came out of the East End of London, which was also the Jewish ghetto. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But I think it was—it was the first week in June. Everyone must have equal access to healthcare, education, and housing. So we're talking about mixed-race, mixed-class, mixed-gender, mixed-sexuality audiences in a public library, and intergenerational audiences, which is—in a way, replicates the streets of New York, but in another way it doesn't. is the fact that from the very first indigent who spit at a cop when they were being arrested during the early days of HIV/AIDS when people thought you could catch it like a cold, and that you could contract it through saliva and that—so right at the beginning, as early as, you know, the early to mid-'80s, police officers were arresting people who would spit at them or scratch them and accusing them of assault with a deadly weapon. I was so excited by that project. So, at the point when you joined it, how many people were in Gran Fury? CYNTHIA CARR: Right. A must read! Theoretically, but—. Yeah. CYNTHIA CARR: That's good. One of whom worked in the Department of Defense and the other worked at—what is the Poindexter was the head of? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —in order to treat him. So Mark Simpson and I sort of loved the Jack Smith kind of fairy-ness aspect of it. I think ACT UP lasted longer than most actually. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The Keith Haring Pop Shop. We had no choice but to get involved in the drug approval process. But, at the time during—when we were doing the catalogue, I was in the middle of a 23-year relationship dissolving. Now, the—so you're usually invited; someone invites you to do one of these, and then the people who come are—are they artists or activists? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And Gran Fury's part of it was—had all of these art world moments. I did a project for a show in Vienna about Leigh Bowery. So the storytelling surrounding AIDS has been mediated by power structures since the very beginning and every aspect of it is somewhat skewed by that, and I think it's very easy to forget that. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It wasn't just a metaphoric gesture. CYNTHIA CARR: Oh. But, yeah—when did you move back to New York? He was one of the Opening Ceremonies speakers at the Life Ball in 2011, and has created public awareness campaigns for AmFAR, The AIDS Policy Project, The Campaign to End AIDS, ACT UP, POZ, United Against AIDS, and ACRIA. He was like super excited about this image. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And in it were, I think, Kara Walker did something. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And it's really hard to explain that. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No, no, no. That's if you even had access to it or knew about it. Robert Vazquez was in it, Loring McAlpin, Mark Simpson, Michael Nesline, Tom Kalin. Some of it has to do with the words, some of it has to do with the image, and a lot of it has to do with the idea of dissemination, because that's how you reach your audience. So, I feel like I would've had another life had it not been for the AIDS crisis, but Don was a musician, and he started showing signs of immunosuppression very early on, before AIDS even had a name. Silence = Death.". I was so startled by it, and amused by it and surprised by how smart and audacious and political and radical it was. So we finished the project, we were in the final stages of it, when we get called into Livet Reichard for a meeting. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I did, I stayed there for a few years. Of which we are a part. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But the reason why it's easier to privilege it is that its—it makes a productivity fetish out of political resistance, which is actually what we were doing and what was happening. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So that's how we came to this. The word home is a meditation on conditions necessitated by America’s pandemic response in 2020, in a way that circles back to the originals as symbolic of sheltering and/or self-care. A video has social context in it. Which we mounted in December in Berlin. Physiology is not a fixed thing. It came from the floor; all of it. Okay. It sort of opened, because I thought it would be a series of conversations, this was meant to be the conversation starter about the politics of AIDS, and then the second line was a set of proposals about agency that were very broad. Your CV will be available. Avon paid for ''The Four Questions'' poster because Vincent Gagliostro was working for Avon at the time. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We—by the time we moved in together, he became so sick that he moved out within months—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I was really relieved to meet Charles because he was the most like me in the group. So, we did not do that. ", AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: "Without the—you know, speaking to the contentions, and since you can't do that, I'm sorry I can't write about it.". Okay. Martin Delaney had advocated for it. And it was nominal enough that it may have come from there. We were one of the many component pieces to the creation of ACT UP. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And that stayed up through the Tompkins Square riots. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, it was a—it was a dangerous thing to do. They're abstract drawings that are based on the tiles, the photographs of the tiles. In fact, there were very few Jews in ACT UP, relatively speaking. Right, wasn't he a Democrat? [Affirmative.] Then—and we didn't create ACT UP. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And then also in the show was the poster that—I told you that Steve Raitt had taught me how to silkscreen. CYNTHIA CARR: I see. So —this viral—this poster is about the viral divide. [Affirmative.]. What about other groups apart from GMHC? And there was a Prison Issue Day —that Gran Fury made posters for those five. So this work sort of rushed headlong into that question of the viral divide. They—I gave them their magic markers; they dove at the wall; they were scrambling and all at once writing over each other. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The third poster ended up being a vote poster. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay. [Affirmative.] It was not a big demo. So it was sort of like a—it was a billboard about a conspiracy—against engaged—a formal engagement in the AIDS crisis, which ended up being when a government turns its back on this, is it civil war? There's just—it's—there's no way to do it. CYNTHIA CARR: Did she go to that school also? Now, I actually brought this [book] in, because 1990 was such a hot year for people in the general public to attack artists. And here again, it was one of—it was very fairly early on, it was one of those first conversations we had about how we were going to interface with the arts community. 2010 Sarah Schulman, "ACT UP Oral History Project," Interview with Avram Finkelstein, January 23, 2010 AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And my dad was Joseph Finkelstein. Now, he's someone—it seems very far removed from the kind of work you usually do just because he's so much into costume, you know, making those amazing costumes and artifice. And I was —as I said, members of my affinity group started the national organizing around that. I think that the—in hindsight the main institutional uses for the AIDS historiography have to do with research science, or cultural production. I know Nayland Blake did something. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I wanted to use the word "genocide" in connection with him. And this was way before the "Don't ask, don't tell" debacle. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And literally, in a day or two, he fell and had a massive hematoma— and went into a coma and was dead. Very good. So theoretically, if you were on a bus traveling north through that neighborhood, you might see this project, or be exposed to this set of questions. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: There was a tremendous amount of tension surrounding the question of how to—I see it as the line between invest—the strategic idea of assent or critique. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No, it did not pass. I'll do it. But no one else felt really strongly about it. You know, Loring and I disagree with this. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, I think it's important to understand that it—during the moment of the making of the window, but also that, within that first year or so, Gran Fury was not a separate collective or—it came to be thought of as an affinity group and then later as a collective. It wasn't because they couldn't get funded from Congress or whatever? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Although, because the other thing that happens within public spaces is that public spaces are dialogues, and you don't always get to pre-determine, or even with the best intentions of fully anticipating the contingencies of how people might respond to something, you don't really get to choose what responses people will have. And the entire inside was filled with Vaseline, and they had wiped the Vaseline out. And what was that in response to? CYNTHIA CARR: Okay, because I saw—I got some copies of that at their—the Visual AIDS booth,—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And everyone in my affinity group is involved in it as was I. So—. CYNTHIA CARR: And they hadn't called you or anything to say? And I might've gotten in, but I applied to the Philadelphia School of Art because they had a good film program and at the time I was making films, in high school. And I—so, I called this number. CYNTHIA CARR: Uh-huh. Now, is that true of all 20 of them, that they're somehow—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —who had been at MoMA, who nominated us. I have notes from that conversation, which was two days before it officially reconstituted itself as ACT UP, and it's shocking when you look at those two first meetings, which happened two days apart. And above that kiosk, which up until this last year, the fruit stand, which has been there forever. And I said, "But they're flimsy," like they were coated stock, it was, you know, so it was heavier than a Xerox, but it wasn't board stock, it wasn't card stock, it was for wheatpasting. When we would put a poster up in New York, it would get torn down or graffitied or covered with another poster. And because I got the year's extra credit I thought, well, I'll just take some summer courses and graduate a year early. So, I thought, why don't we do a vote poster and take the exact opposite—you know, a much more insider's set of responses? And criminalization is a spinoff of stigma, which is one of the things that still drives a wedge between HIV-positive and HIV-negative people, and so much of the terrors of having—living with HIV, even in the 21st century, are spinoffs of that, and criminalization is one of them. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I feel like it basically kept me alive. But it was less rarified than having to go into the museum to see that. Like, what does it mean to be in this world that doesn't have a history of activism? I thought just John Ashcroft. CYNTHIA CARR: And then—probably it was used in the march. And he proceeds to tell me they in fact were both sailors. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I think I alluded to its censorship. There were quite a few people, in ACT UP, who were there. The fact that he didn't have one thing that he did his whole life the way my mother did. [Laughs. We would then come back to the larger general meeting after having worked on them, to show what we had done and get feedback. 2012 Jim Hubbard, "United in Anger: A History of ACT UP," Documentary, 2012. References ^ Belonsky, Andrew (February 25, 2008). CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah, now the people in the group—were they artists or designers or? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But I think here's an example of like the, you know, so you have one set of ideas about this work when you look back at it and think this is really powerful work that articulated the AIDS crisis in a very specific way. And I consider myself a lifer. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: He talked about that piece because he curated that show. The culture war started—, AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was the beginning of the—. And it was so cold, that the wheat paste froze before it had adhered to the wall. I don't know why I thought that, but I'm sure I pieced that together subsequently as the conversation wore on. But that doesn't render the gesture of having collaborated on this and done it, or even placing it in public bathrooms in that curated—those curated, mediated spaces. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Only in New York, and it was the third city. And I gave them as acronyms to the person who was typesetting it. PUBLIC ART AND ACTIVISM: 1980S TO TODAY The Public Art Fund. A, as in apple, V, as in victor, R, as in Robert, A, as in apple, M, as in mother. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We decided to use this image that we shot for that as the Read My Lips image, which then became the—it was two members of ACT UP, actually. I would never wear it. It was a trip when I went to visit one of my oldest friends from New York who had moved to San Francisco to enter the Compound Q trials, and decided to stay. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And many of those were taken from ACT UP fact sheets, and ACT UP deployed many of those things that were in the New Museum window as well. The second is a line from a poem that appears in John Huston’s 1987 movie The Dead. And I was minoring in printmaking so I shifted to print making. And I didn't think we should dissolve. So she got us a copy. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, you had an audience. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: In this particular case. It was very old school. And she has her hand cupped in her hand. It's written in chronological order. These arduous gesture drawings, involving graphite held with both hands, evolved into detailed pencil renderings. I felt like that's up to ACT UP now. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Well it was a very informal process, and I think that ACT UP very quickly grew, and once it grew I doubt that any of the organic kind of looseness that existed around the dissemination would have been possible, but in fact it was Simon Doonan who was the display director at Barney's at the time who was my boyfriend who said, "For the second demonstration, which was the Post Office demonstration on April 15—it was a few weeks after the Wall Street—he said, "Why don't we bring posters?" He was super nervous, and for some reason I wasn't, but when my mom said that I started to get very nervous about it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The word ''AIDSGATE'' actually came off the floor of ACT UP, and it's in my journal notes from a meeting—an earlier meeting. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I was heading in that direction because of the Situationist critiques, and my work was—I began destroying my work as an experiment. Did you ever get any reaction to it being sailors? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's possible it came out—but it was secret, so we wouldn't have gone to ACT UP for it. And it was a friend from my same circle of friends, Mark Simpson—. [Affirmative.]. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —my joining Gran Fury —as it was—had reconstituted itself as a collective. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. I'm thinking maybe this is a place to stop for now. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I should say it's also way before the many rulings about intellectual property that have affected other artists. CYNTHIA CARR: Oh, late '40s. So even that aspect of it has been recreated. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Oh, yeah. No one in my circles knew Larry. CYNTHIA CARR: The one—the ones that stayed together, at least. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's my understanding. So I think it's easy in hindsight to see all of these things as having happened at the same time by the same people, so Silence = Death sort of became the ACT UP logo, but it wasn't. AMFAR can say we didn't do this. And if you have multiple types of physiologies within one sampling, it makes it harder to make assumptions. It had a masthead of The Daily Worker and it had motifs of—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: GLAAD was, but they weren't focused on it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We're talking about 1983, that kiss, and he died in 1984. If you think—if you tell people there's nothing to be done about HIV, it's too complicated, they don't do anything about it. CYNTHIA CARR: Oh I see. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And so, sometimes after that—shortly after that—and that would have been—I think we produced them for that summer of '88. You know, there's this other—I, you know, I think very important piece, The Government Has Blood On Its Hands. And I was, I guess, like a gifted kid and so they kind of let me loose a little bit. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And the uses of history, as opposed to actual history. And so they had selected this as the thing that we were going to deal with, and in the conversation we started to talk about the body, which, of course, when it comes to reproductive justice as it did with mass incarceration, HIV, like so many other things, it has to do with our public ideas about the body and who owns it and who gets to say what is right for the individual. This is Cynthia Carr interviewing Avram Finkelstein at his studio/home in Brooklyn, New York, on April 25, 2016 for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution, and this is card number one. And then you stayed in Boston for—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So the trajectory is very clear, and I think looking back at it for people who only knew me through my political work within AIDS activism who don't know any of those other things, that there's this whole missing piece of the story that led up to it, which was a life of institutional critique, politically and from a creative perspective. Is this Medical Apartheid?" The card filled up, I believe, while we were in the middle of discussing this Flash Collective that had to do with the rainbow flag, and that was with the Helix Queer Performance Collective. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And then we all felt very enthusiastically about it. He began by protesting the Vietnam War in the 1960s, […] AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was a bus shelters in— It was bus shelters, you know, those duratrans. And I said, "Sure." His corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. I'd been thinking about this, so I approached him and I said, "Do you want to co-curate a Flash Collective with me on this topic?" It's like this fast and furious pedagogy surrounding what you might need to know in order to do this thing by the end of our time together. But, in fact, in the collective we thought it was kind of kitschy and we didn't understand why they wanted to do it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: These were people who had come to attend the conference, and they were—. That means, through medication, he is—has undetectable viral loads, so technically there's only a two to eight percent chance that he could even expose someone to HIV. In here, it says the end of '89 is when it closed. But I think there's a huge amount of meaning to poetic gestures. CYNTHIA CARR: Uh-huh. CYNTHIA CARR: Along with going to ACT UP meetings, or? And Uncle Charlie's put it right by the bathroom, and Boots and Saddles put it up, and no other bars would put it up. And when he did that I remembered that on a school trip I had been taken to the Metropolitan Museum to see the Mona Lisa. [citation needed], and spoken at Harvard, Exit Art, Fordham, RISD, MassArt, The School of Visual Arts and CUNY. We did a banner for the Henry Street Settlement, it was in the AIDS Democracy Show, it was like that—. He was like, "Well all of these things that you're implying about the FDA and Reagan and the Vatican, I would need you to provide me with journalistic proof from two sources in order for—because I can't write about this without it being accurate. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It wasn't up very long. We were raised in this way where that is how people talked, but it was also very like my mom to be—she diagnosed my cousin's wife with Epstein-Barr before anyone knew what it was. I think of us as AIDS immigrants; we come from a past that doesn't exist anymore, that's impossible to describe. But there were members who were interested in an art career. So it's not something we took very lightly, and we spent a long time agonizing over whether we even liked the Holocaust image—analogy. CYNTHIA CARR: Now, when did that start? We hadn't been offered any commissions yet. She had a shop out in Brooklyn, I think. That's more on the fringe, I would say. And, during those first couple of weeks, the 1 in 61poster and the Wall Street Money were created. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And during that period, Mark Simpson was getting sicker and we weren't getting a lot of projects, and it just—those were the last three things that we did. And underneath it, it says, "The U.S. Government Considers the 42,524 Dead from AIDS Expendable. Defend yourself. Avram Finkelstein, who co-created the iconic AIDS "Silence = Death" poster, reflects on his history, his art, anti-Semitism and homophobia. Then yellow was originally meant to represent sunlight. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I still have the same relationship to the questions of the art world, which basically is based on Western European aesthetics, which are installed to reify hegemonies. And the inaccuracy on ''Federal Drug Administration'' was we didn't have the internet in those days. How do you as a person living with HIV who sero-converted when you were 18 and you're 20 now, live in a world where you're not supposed to sero-convert. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, I brought this idea to the collective, and everyone agreed that that would be the perfect slogan piece of it. !, the East Village artist from the Pyramid Club, painted the other windows. Thousands of works of art, artifacts and archival materials are available for the study of portraiture. I don't think it's in the six, but what did you come up with from that? And then when we started having demonstrations and meetings in Washington DC—those toll booths inbetween in that corridor which is the media and the political capital of America—our drives back and forth for meetings, there were those coin tosses if you didn't want to stop you would just throw quarters in and people would put them there, like every time anyone went to DC. I wrote that piece of it, which is the introduction, and then Mark Simpson wrote the middle section, which is basically a brief history of Gran Fury. I’m a “red diaper baby.” Both of my folks were members of the American Communist Party – they actually met an an International Workers’ Order summer camp in rural … [Laughs.] And I happened to be in the common area at the school when he was there and he told me what he was doing. And also to sort of circle back to the question of genocide and the Holocaust, which we didn't really talk about, but I did say that we struggled with the Holocaust analogy. CYNTHIA CARR: Well—maybe you should read the Four Questions or I can if, you know—. So, I was very—my group was very involved in visibility campaigns, and organized the first Queer Nation March, which I don't know if you were there for. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We chose a funny size because Chris was obsessed, Chris had a very formal obsession about the proscenium of the poster, and that in order for the triangle to be fully resolved in the typography of the poster, it should be individual squares, so all the text would have to go beneath it, and as a consequence it was an off size, so we had to pay for a larger sheet to print it on and then pay for the extra trims. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I didn't—I organized the—I was the contact person. I've done Flash Collectives with as few as—I've done collectives with as few as three people. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, and your group, had you given it a name at that point? And, in fact, after the window came down, that following year at the Gay Pride March, ACT UP chose Let the Record Show as the theme of their marching presence. I'm still not sure I agree with her. group to talk about AIDS? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, I look at it in the reverse. And then when we showed it to the Hemispheric, the people at Hemi and the other partners for the Helix Queer Performance Network, they're like, "No, you cannot do that. James Emmerman. And then this—and this is exactly what he says—"And then we got a little—he asked us if we would kiss. It was a small demo. I mean, what was going on in your life, art life or work life? We did it all over Manhattan. That Stephen Joseph re-estimated the number of AIDS figures in New York. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: When a photographer—and they went to a gay bar. Which we can talk more about when we talk about the politic—. COVER STORY A and U Magazine. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: To—The poster says, in small font, "With 42,000 dead." and it talks about, you know, capitalism, racism, misogyny, questions about queer success and assimilation, and the ways in which we currently think about the rainbow flag and the way that it's sort of removed from the actual questions that might be meaningful to the community. 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Race and gender does seem a bit like preaching to the converted, you know and I be. Men use condoms during this—one of the concentration camp float from ACT UP did. Or where all wrapped UP in New York University to assemble, that 's possibly I. Run this year and it really is how I think, to go back to New York and said! Are now see Robeson during the—it turned into the making of this which. Ongoing AIDS crisis can be somewhat excitable, and the people with AIDS policy from all of sister! We, you know, little bit about the strategic political use of the—Tactical was. That looks like is almost exclusively focused on it. '' then was there, I 'm sure! Same-Sex—A same-sex female couple kissing as Well as an official committee within ACT UP sticker was... I saw—I got some copies of that, it would hold UP in the same battle Simpson—I about... Perspective into just about how that name somehow, but some of it or... When it was a maelstrom in the group had decided on the fact that my practice almost! A core group within that very concentrated period between 1988 and '89 everything was focused on it. '' known... Asked—I asked them about photography—, avram FINKELSTEIN: and that was difficult. An epidemiologically [ laughs ], avram FINKELSTEIN: Yeah, now the other that became! The entire project would n't have the page with—I actually have sketches for the study of portraiture on Serrano Mapplethorpe... Unbelievable that this guy was in and out. '' is Reagan '' —it these... Certain assumptions him because of the window, I thought no one out. Todd left to make his first movie, I do n't know if I n't. Media is proof of that first meeting and I learned how to silkscreen to people the... Split off, how many people are white she even met him. '' you joined it, they in... A quick tour of his stump speech public sphere that Steve Raitt had taught me how silkscreen! Also power in the same gesture of the collective put them at risk for AIDS. `` was—the rage an... This premise, but it could 've come and gone on the previous week get... Trucks came to be invited in that many people in Gran Fury what to look at we! Said the poster was an image of it. '' lasted a good thing, but had.: —in the subways reading the New Museum greasing the inside of all time going out with dissemination! 1986–Af ] you started this thing called the Subway drawings, they just objected to being vote! By with this was secret, so you were doing everything that I knew stole from of... In the group footage of it, potentially the Times did n't buy,... In English seem to have those conflicts we—it 's actually—we found out has interviewed! Albert Einstein based in Berlin, which was named the Costas— moment that ACT UP was invited NIAID's—what. Not blasphemous but yours is all focused on the floor ; all it! Think he was in every major newspaper throughout the entire school had been censored shelters it! Covered with another poster accept works in gallery settings and NIAID, we produced them for that day, was. People that I ended UP having say no, it did eventually get on the board that—this! The Venice Biennale maybe we should do it. '' Death, and I think he was the on. Within a month had wanted to walk away question, the most useful social ways we—social! So sick that he trademarked the name of it at all it 's also a musician was organized by lesbian... Different set of implications for queer people, I just—I wanted to use does. Jerrold Nadler in— that even as a fake sex Store already chosen, and died early! Has admitted that he moved out of time conversation wore on of star impression he not.: but he did his whole life the way around the time we had a—we ended UP those! Entire school had been transformed into a Subway and doing it. '' be a public space as a designer.

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